Everyday since I remember, I have heard the same ideas repeated over to myself, to other people via books, word of mouth, subconsciously or consciously, that XYZ people are bad. For instance, I am Muslim and a Pakistani, I had this idea almost drilled into me that Hindus and Indians are bad, United States is out to get me and Jews are the enemy. Not that someone actually told me this, but it was there in the books, it was there subtly in the stories told by the elders and it was pronounced when people talked about politics at the dinner table.
So in our naive minds, all Hindus initially did turn out to be people who threw away their utensils if a muslim had used them, Sikhs turned out to be only balvaees (the people who did massacre during partition) and Indians were the ones who took kashmir from us, similarly US were the people who were anti-Pakistan and hence bad..they also helped Israel and hence they were bad. Same went for kids on the other side of the world in whose opinion muslims were the terrorists and fanatics and the third world dint have much rights and the muslims were out toget them as well. Unfortunately in a kid’s mind, a country’s foreign policy and the people of its country can be intermingled. For a very long time, I was wary of jews, and then I came to university and all my friends turned out to be jews and caucasians and they also figured that I wasnt a terrorist in any aspect 
.
However, this hatred and this bigotry is fed to us, so much so that it becomes part of our nature. and as the days are passing, unfortunately, the world events are only aiding to strengthen these differences and hatred in many minds. I cannot help but wonder why is all this happening, and increasingly so.
Today, before the 9 am meeting, Darrin (my manager) told an interesting research story about diversity. Here is how it went
In 1968, in response to the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., Jane Elliott, a third-grade teacher in Riceville, Iowa, decided to teach her class about the evils and realities of prejudice and discrimination. Her remarkable, controversial and startling, “Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes” exercise labeled her third-grade participants as inferior or superior based solely upon the color of their eyes and exposed them to the experience of being a minority.
Ms. Elliot began the exercise by asking her class what they thought of people who were different than they were. She asked about people in wheelchairs, people who were black, Native Americans, older people, and other minority groups. The children responded hatefully, mimicking things that they had heard like “They are different and ugly,” and “They smell.” Then, Ms. Elliott asked the blue-eyed children to raise their hands and all the brown-eyed children to raise their hands. She then responded with the “undeniable fact” that all blue-eyed children are smarter than brown-eyed children, cleaner, study harder and are simply better than brown-eyed children. The blue-eyed children immediately felt superior, while the brown-eyed children felt let down and abused.
Ms. Elliott made the brown-eyed children wear green collars for the day, and announced the blue-eyed children would get five more minutes of play time and would have no homework for that day. The brown-eyed children would have to use a cup to get water from the drinking fountain and would have five minutes less for lunch. They were also made to sit together on one side of the class room. That day the children who were once friends picked on and fought with one another. The blue-eyed children scored well on flash card tests, while the brown-eyed children scored substantially lower.
The next day the roles were reversed. Ms. Elliott told the children that she had lied. Brown-eyed children were in fact the superior ones. The collars were switched and the day proceeded as the day before had. This time the brown-eyed children felt superior. They scored higher on tests. The mayhem of the day before was repeated in the fights.
On the Wednesday after each group of children had played the superior and inferior roles, the collars were destroyed and the class was reunited. The children huddled together and explained how the experiment made them feel. Each child attested and confirmed that he or she would try in the future to recognize people who might be different and embrace the differences rather than discriminate against them.
Sometimes I wonder, if this is all because some of us sit on the different side of the classroom 
. If so, how sad is the state of the world we live in .. how limited its color palette.
This is slightly tangential, but wanna know yours and other Pakistani’s views on some issues.
Qutoing your article “Indians were the ones who took Kashmir from us”. Do you still believe that? I do not know what Pakistani history books say about the issue, but I have heard that there is a lot of mis-information, censorship and anti-India propaganda! On the contrary, Indian history text books deal with the issue with a lot of neutrality (we are secular and proud to be so) and never carry anti-Pak propaganda.
Coming to the actual happenings of 1947, the Maharaja of Kashmir signed it over to India and the largest political party of the state, the National Conference (which by the way had 70+ % of the states’ vote bank) was in favor of this act. Here is an excerpt from a non-Indian, non-Pakistani source:
“The Accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India, signed by the Maharaja (erstwhile ruler of the State) on 26th October, 1947, was completely valid in terms of the Government of India Act (1935), Indian Independence Act (1947) and international law and was total and irrevocable. The Accession was also supported by the largest political party in the state, the National Conference. In the Indian Independence Act, there was no provision for any conditional accession. The Instrument of Accession executed by the Maharaja was the same as the ones executed by over 500 princely states in India. There has been no complication in any of the other cases. There would have been none in this case either, except for Pakistan’s action in sending in tribal invaders first (in October 1947) and its own regular troops later (May 1948). ”
More neutral history available from this Wikipedia link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir
So there you have it, nowhere does Kashmir belonging to Pakistan legally (International Law) prop up. Where then have we ’snatched’ your state? Also, when Kashmir became a part of India, Muslims were a majority, but only by a slight margin. (52:48 or something like that). Today’s demographics are given at this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/south_asia/03/kashmir_future/html/2.stm
Notice that the Kashmir valley is almost completely Muslim! This is not by the peoples’ will!!! It is through the continuous GENOCIDE and terror perpetrated by the Pak govt! Millions of Kashmiri pundits (native kashmiri Hindus) have been driven out of their homeland, most of them have been killed. All in the name of religion!
What is commendable though is the fact that India stays SECULAR after all this drity blood being shed in the name of religion. Hindus, unlike the muslims in or outside the nation, are not taught to HATE Muslims or any other religion. True, you find a few Hindu extremist political parties, but their actual contribution or say in the nation is nominal, else, a nation that is 82% Hindu should have put them in power repeatedly and should have exterminated the Muslims and other minorities (who, on the contrary, enjoy a lot of provisons given to them inder Indian law which the majority hindus do not enjoy. For example, polygamy is illegal in India, except for muslims!! They have quotas in educational institutions, govt jobs and even the parliament! )
Solution: no easy one as far as Kashmir is concerned. However, I would love to see the Pak govt. change its Histroy Text books to reflect upon the actual truth, and not feed the monster that is already breeding epidemically in fanatic Madrasas! This would make life acroos the border (or LOC) much more comfortable. Muslims in India have always been safe, and will continue to remain that way, irrespective of the treatment of Hindus in Pak or Bangladesh! Indian Kashmir’s populace will never have to worry about state discrimination based on religion, however if they join Pakistan, the 50% Buddhist Ladakh and the 43% Hindu Jammu will face genocide or coerced convertion. So I am in favor of Kashmir staying with India, not because I am Indian, but because the everyday kasmiri will lead a much better, safer life.
On a different issue, Bangadeshi muslims continously immigrate to India illegally, thanks to the shitty state of affairs in their country. If the border with Pak was not a military flash point, a very similar situation would have unfolded there, of course, thanks to the shitty state of affairs there (Military govt, perinial political instability, persecution of women etc). India might not have a clean sheet on these issues, but for a developing nation, it has startling records! One opinion poll found Indian’s to be among the top 5 ‘most satisfied’ people in the world (Google it)! After all, it is the 4th largest economy today and the way things are heading, all set to be a political and economic Juggernaut of the future. Hope it gets a permanent seat at the security council and hope the current Indian nominee for UN seretary general gets the post! Vande Matarm.
I am not saying we r ‘taught’ to hate X Y Z or that we are ‘told’ kashmir was taken from us. Our history books also contain the same versions of Kashmir issue as yours or as wikipedia. However even if the given ‘text’ is the same, the way it is interpreted by both sides is different ..as always..in any debate. Without even going into details..as u mentioned..u think kashmiris wud be safer with Indians…thats ur view point..in ur own eyes, very unbiased and justified…but there are enormous number of pakistanis who also believe that Kashmir shud be annexed to pakistan as this wud make kashmiris life easier. and they also come up with excellent remarks.. what wud u do about that?
And if indians being more satisfied was a reason, I am sure I would like being annexed with canada or sweden…then pakis wud be very satisifed. but anyway, thats not the point here. I have thought about this whole issue, and the idea of kashmir, and I think the best bet for kashmiris wud be to BE LEFT ALONE ..let them be…they neither belong here nor there and i am not sure how many of them actually want to be a part of india or even pakistan.
Anyway i wont digress into these issues,my concern and idea here was, why do we start teaching about where we differ but never start teaching about the common grounds? Why does every education system in the world focus on whats different instead of where we stand united?
So there you have it, nowhere does Kashmir belonging to Pakistan legally (International Law) prop up. Where then have we ’snatched’ your state? Also, when Kashmir became a part of India, Muslims were a majority, but only by a slight margin. (52:48 or something like that). Today’s demographics are given at this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/south_asia/03/kashmir_future/html/2.stm
Notice that the Kashmir valley is almost completely Muslim! This is not by the peoples’ will!!! It is through the continuous GENOCIDE and terror perpetrated by the Pak govt! Millions of Kashmiri pundits (native kashmiri Hindus) have been driven out of their homeland, most of them have been killed. All in the name of religion!
this exactly proves my point..see the finger pointing going on here? this is not a neutral comment..this is an Indian comment..and a Pakistani comment wud be something like the one below
‘The valley of Kashmir was always Muslim majority..slight margin or no margin it was MUSLIM MAJORITY..if by rules of partition raja’s will to annex a state with a country was acceptable then India should let go of states like Hyderabad Deccan. And just like hindu pandits have been killed thousands of muslim kashmiris have been killed…by INDIAN FORCES. just like u see pakistan as committing GENOCIDE..we see it as helping Kashmiris in war of independence and see India as an usurper.
and please dont even begin to say that india is secular, if allowing polygamy for a minority is secularism than pakistan is also secular.drinking is allowed only for minorities for example. they also have their own seats in the parliament. and contrary to the repeated hindu-muslim riots in India such as in gujrat, i ve never seen a SINGLE hindu muslim riot in karachi e.g. On kashmir issue the verdict by UN was a poll..that was never conducted…so India shudnt be complaining now’
now THAT were 2 responses from indian and pakistanis. This is exaclty what I am pointing out. as a human I ve no resentment towards you…and u dont have towards me. as a pakistani i have. as an indian u have too..which is evident from wat u wrote above. This is an unending debate , for 59 yrs we have been fighting over it..spending 70% of our budget on this. and you know what..i dont even think we give a damn abt kashmir or kashmiris. Both countries want kashmir because giving it to the other one means providing an entry point to the heart of the countries which is against their defence policies.
i believe that it wud be so much better, if we all try , as parents, as teachers, as mentors to make humans out of people and then make them patriots and followers of religions. Being an indian shudnt mean questioning the making of a pakistani and vice versa. Being caucasian shudnt mean middle easterns being terrorists and being middle eastern shudnt mean caucasians r evil. THIS conceptuality of basing our ideas on DIFFERENCES and ONLY differences, is wrong. thats all
Well maria…just read your original blog and the comments on it….i absolutely agree with you . And dear fellow Indian , the blog was not about india-pakistan or kashmir but about feeding hatred with breast milk . All of us have such prejudices, some “ideas”….and sometimes when we realise how wrong we were in making those stereotypes ..its too late. At least when it comes to teaching our kids let us spare them from such racist prejudices( well..be it based on caste, religion, naionality or colour of skin..its all same when it coems to spreading hatred.)
Maria, since u r fond of poetry…I will quote form Iqbal:
Aayiye hath badhye hum bhee…
Hum, jinhe rasme-jahan yaad nahin
Hum, Jinhe rasme muhhabat ke siva
Koi but koi khuda yaad nahin.
Very interesting post. At a time when India is bitterly divided on the issue of reservations of seats in educational institutions(read affirmative action), this experiment is something one must reflect upon.
atoorva, I am quite aware of the crux of the bloggers essay. Also, pay heed to the first line of my comment. You will see that I accept digressing from the issue at hand. The reason I go deeep into the Indo-pak enimity is because a large majority of India isn’t systematically taught to hate pakistan, but Pak continues to instill hate against India in a organized manner. It is a big desire in the common Indian man that, like the author, the rest of Pak realises that its govt’s propaganda is for political power & there is no real reason to hate India or Hindus (which is a bigger concern since pak is home to 25 million hindus). On India’s part, the govt. needs to work on instilling nationality into our Muslims as they repeatedly surface as traitors (which is not entirely their fault). Instead of worrying about trying to make India an Islamic country, they need to embrace secularism and enjoy the liberty offered to them in India (which is unparalelled to those offered in Islamic countries). For developing countries, liberties offered by India, Brazil and the likes is comparable to the West ans is a far cry from restrictive, authoritative Islamic states.
Imagine what power a unified, democratic & secular subcontinent could yield! India is already the 4th biggest economy in the world, with that legacy, getting to the top won’t be too tough. Imagine all the resources (monetary & human) that can be saved if the arms race, which is currently nuclear, can be ended! Imagine what that money can do to alleviate poverty, bring about sound public education and health care systems yada yada yada. Imagine Hindus getting back to where their religion began (Sindh viz the origin of the word Hindh –> Hindu) & imagine the oppurtunities that would open up to millions of Paki engineers, mathematicians and scientists (argue as much as you wnat to, India is the knowledge capital of Asia)! Imagine an India as it was in the glory days (spanning from Kandahar to today’s Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan & Sri Lanka)of Ashoka or Akbar!
As someone said, dreams of today are realities of tomorrow.
To the author: I do not know why you removed my previous post, it was a rebuttal to your comments. They were not a personal attack on you, nor on your country or religion, and still it was cut off.Clearly, you dont seem to believe in free speech! But yes, its your blog, so your prerogative.
hate pakistan, but Pak continues to instill hate against India in a organized manner
i dont know how you get to that conclusion? do you think people stand in front of us in schools or homes and chant ‘hate india’ to us?
also look at this comment
“needs to work on instilling nationality into our Muslims as they repeatedly surface as traitors (which is not entirely their fault)”
i dont understand..or maybe i dont know india too well..how do indian muslims surface as traitors??? actually a good question — since i dont understand why every single don in a bollywood flick is named ‘musa’ or ‘aslam’ or something of the sort.
thirdly…so far as kashmir is concerned it has nothing to do with india;s secularism or economy or antyhing of the sort.
while i understand and appreciate india becoming a country as u r envisioning it to be..i think u need to take off some tinted specs here
argue as much as you wnat to, India is the knowledge capital of Asia)! ??
i wud argue that…oriental countries like china, japan and taiwan wud go way beyond india in these categories.
on a second note..i DID NOT delete your comment at all. i think it is awaiting moderation or something and hence not showin up.
on the other hand…i am not sure if the comment shud be here either..because as most of us see this is NOT a kashmir or pakistan vs india debate here. and the comment was exactly that. so unless i come here and some other people come here and have a comment-debate..its useless
and kind of projects a one-D image of things.
Ok, knowledge thing was a bit premature. Coming to think of it, Japan and South Korea take the prize. But China & Tiwan!! How did you even conclude that?! China is the sweat shop of the world and Tiwan, a more democratic and much smaller version of the same! Name me a Fortune 500 company from either! You too got it wrong on this one! If you had however argued that these were the manufacturing hubs for the knowledge economies like the US, Japan, western Europe and S. Korea, I would gladly agree! And as for India being the knowledge capital, I based the argument on the fact that it houses the largest number of people in the software and ITES sectors. Five companies, Tata, Reliance, TCS, Wipro & Infosys are all set to break into the fortune 500 and all of them are knowledge based.
On a secon note, India & China are the only two countries in Asia in the Space domain. Both have capabilities of launching commercial satellites in to space, homegrown rocket science & nuclear science. (Now I do not want you to start arguing about how Pak is also a nuclear country and how it hence could be considered a knowledge economy. Pak’s nukes are almost Chinese and rockets N Korean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Foreign_Assistance ).
If you are interested in the Indian Space program, refer http://www.isro.gov.in/ & http://www.antrix.org/
On the Indo-Chinese space race, this makes good reading: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/china.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.05/view.html?pg=4
Looks like in the not so far away future, India & China will hold the ‘knowledge leaders’ tag in Asia.
As far as your question on Indian Muslims originating as traitors, it has to do with the concept of Islamistan: A region starting form Afghanistan and ending in Bangladesh where only Muslims live!! In their quest to achieve this (I do not understand why their allegiance to religion is greater than the land that shelters them!), they often collude with foreign extemist organizations (mostly based in Pak & some in Bangladesh) & act as spies in our defense and space agencies. There are scores of cases where muslims working in ISRO and DoD have worked for ISI for free!
The reason I say its not their fault is here: India has 160 million muslims, the 2nd largest in the world I read. 95% of these ‘choose’ not to attend schools that are set up for the public. Instead, their education happens in Mosques and is limited to the Kuran (mostly radical interpretations of it). On the other hand is a burgeoning economy largely growing in the knowledge sector which has no place for young men who know nothing other than holy scriptures. The reason Bollywood casts villans/underworld dons as muslims is because they form a large section (70%+) of those communities for reasons I explained above. So, the muslim community remains poverty stricken and backward in its thinking. This is not completely the muslims fault as the Indian govt has not tacken any action to ban education that is solely religious!
The solution is to mandate Muslims to attend normal ‘day schools’ with kids of Hindu, Sikh, Christian & Parsi background. Also, monotoring of extremist teachings in mosques is required. We will then witness a progressive and educated muslim community in India that has pride in its nation while religion will come second. Or, BAN religion altogether like China. Of course, the latter is against Human Rights but ensures allegience to the nation as against religion.
i still need to research quiet a few claims u r making..because I am not an Indian and hence need some external sources.
however unfortunately the article that started on very humanitarian grounds seems to have initiated a -india-is-the-best-forget-the-rest type argumentation. I understand as an indian u love india just as I love my own country, i also admire India’s progress in many areas (especially InfoSYS has been a so-called inspiration for me for a very long time) but lets not get carried on and start making false claims. let india be where it stands at the point and hope it wud be where u think it is right now…in times to come (along wid other asian countries)
however ..i did research a few things and here is how it goes
1- India VS china — u r thinking China is the labor market of the world, well so is India. unfortunate..but true. firstly half of the merchandise in canada, america and europe s from india or bangladesh and china of course because of the cheap labor. i dont see how india surpasses china here. secondly, and more importantly as i am a CE myself, so far as the tech industry is concerned, the jobs that have been created in india, for a very large percentage, are not very ‘educational’ in nature. what do i mean by that? let me quote something our professors told us in school and what we saw in industry ‘we dont want you to become coders, we want u to become scientists, for the former we have countries like india, bagladesh and pakistan’ sad but true! so lets not get carried off with the ‘educational center’ ideas here. you know as well as I do that half of the multinationals outsource to india as well..jobs like calling centers . whats that? a sweat shop in my opinion.
secondly, i dont know how can u make such a claim. the literacy rate in india is, 52% on the other hand the chinese literacy rate is 85.2% http://www.accu.or.jp/litdbase/policy/chn/index.htm
a STAGGERING difference!
now comes ur so called claim that out of muslims in india, 95% of them ‘chuse’ not to attend public schools. it is a staggering figure and i would love to see this stated somewhere in a worthy source. also tell me something, if indian state has not been able to instill nationalism in their own residents for 60 years, i think all ur aguments of annexing kashmir to india go down right here. it would not do, neither for them, nor for the rest of indians.
so far as the behavior of muslims is concerned, i dont know as I havent lived there, but i think that if they CHOSE to live in India as oppose to migrate, they had a very strong national sense in them. and if all the above statistics that u have posted r correct…then indian state has done nothing but to force that nationalism out of them and make them dons and illiterates.
also, very interestingly u mention something about pakistan’s nuclear program and the tech being borrowed from china and korea. yes i admit it. it is!
but u forget to mention something else… indian tech was borrowed from russia ..just as china was a substantial help to pakistan for its nuclear and missile program..russia was for india.
here goes the asian military report
http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/asianwmd020202%5B1%5D.pdf
so where do we stand? and let me mention something else, it is very weird, that u r being so sarcastic of borrowing technologies, i think in a world like today.. no one goes out and reinvents a wheel. thats the basics of technology. so if india and pakistan and several other countries have borrowed tech…then what? its a start and there is a long way to go. but as u seemed pretty critical about it. i thought i wud point out the indian version as well.
something else interesting on china and india here
china is the 11th richest country in asia as opposed to india’s 18th
http://www.aneki.com/asia_richest.html
also, i checked the fastest growing economies, here goes
china is the second fastest growing economy in THE WORLD!
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-fastest-growing-economies-map.html
also..somewhere along ur comments..i got confused whether u r having a contest against all asian countries or just pakistan. it seemed one and then the other.
also u dint mention how did u come across this idea that pakistanis are FED hatred against india? dude u almost make us sound like we have nothing else to do
“it is very weird, that u r being so sarcastic of borrowing technologies”. That is a very silly statement. If you justify biological, chemical & nuclear warfare technology sale in the international market like cotton or tea, albeit to the highest bidder, then you live in a very ‘make believe’ world of your own!
You may counter argue by suggesting that missiles, aircrafts, guns etc have always been sold in the international market! make note, these are sales of ‘outdated’ equipment and a lot of policy makers brood over its consequence in the long run on the power game. Pay as much as you want to, the US will never sell its stealth bombers or the Russians their latest subs. That is where Chinese assistance to Pak’s nuke program turns out to be an aberration, much like US assistance to Israeli warfare tech. In fact, international observers make a note that Pak’s nuclear cappabilities are probably not as advanced as they claim just because China will never sell the ‘best & latest’ to pak. Having said that, Pak is gearing up to produce 200 nukes in the coming year. What they lack in quality, they are trying to make up in quantity.
Oh man I am investing too much time in this debate. Although I have a bunch of stuff to say about about points you’ve raised, esp on the Indian software industry, I do not have the inclination to take it forward. Over and out! Bye
China might have more literacy levels than India does, but India has a far higher percentage of college grads! In fact, 40% of India is college educated, that is 400 million ppl, higher than the population of the US!! Thats the reason for the outsourcing of services! & yes, the quality of outsourcing has improved since it first began (1990s) and today, RESEARCH outsourcing is the direction the world is headed. Analysts expect the next two decades to see a deluge in outsourcing of research related work to India! Thats is why the west is concerned about India’s growing impact on the world’s economy & that is why China is investing truck loads in trying to come to speed with India when it comes to ‘knowledge’ jobs!
Your figures on Asia’s richest countires does not have a logical flow from previous arguments of ours! I never claimed India to have a high GDP/Capita which is their definition of rich! I only claimed India to be the 4th biggest economy (GDP) in the world, which is still valid!
Also, your figures on fastest growing economies have no bearing to our argument, since I never claimed anything to this effect. Now that you bring it up, growth without mass has no impact on the global economy. So really, China, India & Brazil are the only ‘FAST’ growing economies that matter as they have huge GDPs.
“also..somewhere along ur comments..i got confused whether u r having a contest against all asian countries or just pakistan. it seemed one and then the other.” I am having a contest with no one. The only ’superlative’ was regarding the ‘knowledge economy’ claim which I confirmed in a previous comment!
Oh you poor soul! My My you have had your hands full with inane debate. My thoughts, on your original pondering, are 1. We lead ourselves astray by paying attention to this world 2. The belief of everyone that they are on moral high ground shunts their growth on every other plane then the physical one. I might convey my message more clearly over time but I do hope you have the gist of it, if not then I will try again.
Afzaal, you offer no opinions, but judge ‘whoever’ as a poor soul and classify the debate as ‘inane’. Your 2nd point sums up your own comment! You put yourself on a moral highground, call souls poor … Whatever you ‘judgemental, condescending, higher-plane, transcendental’ dude.
Whatever: I am not here to bicker or offer opinion on a debate which has no end. I am commenting on the blog not the debate that ensued on Pak and India. I thought I had summed up my POINTS, if you want to take them as comments, then that is fine, and finally I do not judge, not always!!. I think you need to understand humor. Do you think the debate on Pak and India is what the blog is about? I don’t think it is. But you are entitled to have your opinions, Peace.
aaah well. been here after a long time
. well have u noticed that u r going in circles and as ‘proposition’ u actually r not even sure what the ’stance’ is? its all over the place. but anyway, regarding pakistan and nuclear research umight want to read up on kahuta plants in pakistan. that shud clear stuff up.
surely u do realize that right?
secondly..dude when i wrote the above article..i meant we shud be ‘humanitarian’ not ’stupid’. the siding of china with pakistan is politics and each and every country has allies who support it. and allies in politics r there because of some common problem/interest. in tis case china and pakistan both have unresolved disputes on territory with india and not wid each other. secondly, if u think china siding with pakistan is a bad thing..well india has its own allies doesnt it? and if u deny it.thats a very very sad position to live in.
now as for your ‘we-wouldnt-fire-nukes-first’ policy… dude as mentioned.. i wish people were more humane..not DUMB. have u ever spotted pakistan on the map? if a nuke hits us ..there wudnt be enough of us LEFT to fire back. we cannot sign our own death warrant by signing the aforementioned policy
and *sigh* as per tech sales..where have u beeen? in the tech world technology IS sold like tomatoes and spinach or any other veggie. u have the money.u GET the technology if u can. u dont NEED to go around and start doing it all over… and every single top brand tech company i knew..DOES it.. IBM buying over rights for versioning system e.g.
*i officially give up now*
Here are some links that I believe will be interested
where the hell is this debate going…everyone is off the f-ing topic???? desi people confuse me the most allthough i happen to be one of them
well the debate was a ‘topic’ in itself. if u ONLY read comments it wud make some sense lol but yepp…it has noothign to do with the topic..and for myself i pointed that out some 100 times in my own comments [:P] and so did some others
ok…i really want to know who this concerned indian dude/chick is because i am dying to meet/meat him/her…wow, the next time he or she writes posts something on the web, don’t even read the whole thing just look for anything you can easily twist and would be suitable and usable to become even a bigger pain in the ass than this person has become…I AM SOOOO SERIOUS
It is sad to come across a debate between an indian and a qadiani over the fate of Kashmir! Refer to the statement agreed by the united nations and the then prime ministers of india and pakistan over http://www.un.org . The declaration lead to the acceptance of ceasefire between both countries only if India agreed to hold a plebiscite in the indian held valley of Kashmir after a little while. This refrendum would decide whether kashmiris wanted to accede to pakistan or india. Nevertheless, this has not been held to this date. Lemme ask why? So if u a bitchy qadiani think that you are representing pakistan then beaware that with your fucking meagre knowledge you will not make far and by God the Government of Pakistan will never endorse your opinion on the state and people of pakistan. You are not pakistan! Yes ofcourse you have the right to express your own opinion but then donot try to present it as a pakistani thought since it is people like you who apply for assylum and nationalities in foreign countries just on the bases of the fact that you are a qadiani and unfit for pakistan. Whatever the case , you will go to hell.
For the Indian , Please mend your ways of trying to impart your mentality on others. Before continuing or even initiating a discussion like somebody who is very artistic and knowledgeable do read few books and go through some articles. Lets finish this routine of blindly defending what we believe.
dude you need to go write a TOEFL. Your English AND Logic skills are 10 ft below rock bottom as you cannot even figure out who is one whose side.
and stop quoting your 7th grade Pakistan Studies books — u r almost making pakistanis sound ridiculous!
first of all you are not a pakistani , I wish someday that line is included in the constitution of pakistan as well. Secondly, I would prefer a dog to represt pakistan than you maria mirza fucking qadiani. Regardless, of which side you are on. It will still be like satan advocating for pakistan! Its better that you step down and get that fucking canadian nationality like all ur other kafar brothers and sisters on the basis of u know what. Now don’t fucking start with the word dude trying to sound like a yankie . U r a desi bitch who is not a pakistani . U r whatever u r just bcoz u blindly follow ur father’s and forfather’s religion blindly. Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani is an imposter , so says the constitution of Pakistan and Saudia Arabia. Yes, go to hell!
@Sherry!! Clearly you are a zealot for expressing hatred to someone who speaks out for what he believes in. Just so I make it clear, you do not have to concur on my line of thought, but you do need to dissociate the argument form the commentator. Using your own condescending tone and fancy Americana kinda Bronx Language:
GROW UP SCUM BAG. “I AM SOOOO SERIOUS”. Gosh .. what are you, a Beverly hills’ princess?? That is SOOOO not how you talk in pakistan, unless you are devouring one mediocre Hollywood flick after another. Sheesh, what a wanna-be yankee teeny bopper from La-Whore!!??
As for your claim of fact interpretation to ones own convenience, welcome to the REAL world.
@John Adams: You do not notice the references provided in my arguments. Lets keep the preaching aside for the momnet and READ all that I have referred, and then conclude on who is more knowledgeable, if not erudite, on the issue.
@Maria: why the caustic dismissal of John’s comments. The world needs people of all language and logic abilities to make it complete. And there are many shades to an argument, none which is completely ‘WRONG’.
I just watched the movie “Gandhi” ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083987/ ) a couple days back. I cant help but notice how pre ‘47 Hindus and Muslims coexisted in harmony, till the English incited the hatred. They left a country divided, people divided and forever seeded animosity between the Hindus and Muslims. Russia, China, Pak, India & now Korea is nuclear. This is the highest density of nuclear arsenal in any geographical area. Time we really thought about diplomatic options to all national/international crises for if one spirals out of control, the region can be scarred for eternity. Imagine this, Pak, China & N. Korea on one side of the war & India, Russia & the US on the other. Annihilation is no more the realm of the four horsemen, it lies in the pristine Himaliyan valley of kashmir and in the hubris consuming extremist Islam and Hinduism (& prolly christianity & communism too).
In reply to the authour comment #7: “i dont know how you get to that conclusion? do you think people stand in front of us in schools or homes and chant ‘hate india’ to us?”
Read this: http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06feb/0702ss1.htm
& this: http://www.newstodaynet.com/guest/0711gu1.htm
Excerpts from PAk history text books:
General:
‘Who is a Hindu? A Hindu is an enemy of Islam’
‘Before the Arab conquest, people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists & Hindus. Before the arrival of Islam in India, people lived in untold misery’.
‘European nations have been working during the past three centuries to subjugate countries of the Muslim world’.
Class IV Text Book:
* The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India in 1947. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.
* The Hindus treated the ancient population of the Indus Valley very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.
* The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.
Class V Text Book:
* After the war of 1965, India with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, incited the people of East Pakistan against West Pakistanis. In December 1971, the Indians themselves also attacked East Pakistan. As a result East Pakistan separated from us. We should all receive military training so that we can foil the designs of the enemy in the future. (By implication, not even a single Muslim in East Pakistan, including Mujibur Rehman, fought against West Pakistanis in 1971)
* The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.
Class VI
‘The foundation of the Hindu set-up was based on injustice and cruelty’.
‘The Hindus who had always been opportunists, cooperated with the British’.
‘The Hindus used to please the goddess Kali by slaughtering people of other religions’.
Class VII
‘Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase Muslim culture and civilisation’.
Class IX
‘The Hindus and the Muslims could not amalgamate each other’s way of life to become one nation. The main reason for this difference of cultures, civilisation and outlook was the religion of Islam which cannot be assimilated in any other system as it is based on the principle of oneness of God. On the other hand, Hinduism is based on the concept of multiple Gods’.
‘In connivance with the (British) government, the Hindus started communal riots and caused loss of life and property. At the time of prayers, the Hindus tortured the Muslims by playing music in front of the mosques. Before the commencement of classes, the students saluted the portrait of Mahatma Gandhi and Muslim students were also forced to do so’.
‘Muslims promoted equality and social justice as against the division (created) by the (Hindu) caste system’.
Class X
‘(The ideology) of Pakistan was a revolt against the prevailing system of India in which Hindu nationalism was imposed on the Muslims…’
‘Islam gives a message of peace and brotherhood… There is no such concept in Hinduism. Moreover, Islam preaches brotherhood, equality and justice… On the other hand, the Hindu society is based on caste system which downgrades the entire mankind’.
How is that for propaganda?
http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06feb/0702ss1.htm …thats my source
General:
‘Who is a Hindu? A Hindu is an enemy of Islam’
‘Before the Arab conquest, people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists & Hindus. Before the arrival of Islam in India, people lived in untold misery’.
‘European nations have been working during the past three centuries to subjugate countries of the Muslim world’.
Class IV Text Book:
* The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India in 1947. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.
* The Hindus treated the ancient population of the Indus Valley very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.
* The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.
Class V Text Book:
* After the war of 1965, India with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, incited the people of East Pakistan against West Pakistanis. In December 1971, the Indians themselves also attacked East Pakistan. As a result East Pakistan separated from us. We should all receive military training so that we can foil the designs of the enemy in the future. (By implication, not even a single Muslim in East Pakistan, including Mujibur Rehman, fought against West Pakistanis in 1971)
* The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.
@John adams and concerned indian <— real battle of wits going on here!amaaazing
@Concerned indian
Excerpts from PAk history text books: <– I love how u make such a matter-of-fact statements. i believe u went to high school in pakistan?or found the curriculum online correct? oh no wait..this was the source
“vsundaram@newstodaynet.com”
VERY impartial. bravo!
secondly…what sort of argument is possible if u derive ur facts from cinema?
and btw.. so far as 1971 is concerned. out textbooks mention elections in pakistan and the disagreements that happeend between bhutto and mujibur rehman at that point… it has nothing to do with you..or anyone else.
at this point — this thread wud be closed for discussion. i really dont have any thing else to say
@John Adams
if u r such a proud pakistani..stop calling urself John Adams and then get the hell out of Nederlands and get back to Pakistan! second..no one gives a damn whats in pakistan’s constitution because i never knew to be a muslim u need constitution or a clause in it. if u think u r right…try coming around and have an argument with me on ‘relgiious’ issues…without using ur foul mouth to yell and scream like a maniac
also…
Lets finish this routine of blindly defending what we believe
LOL….now this is the bigggggeesssst irony of this yr! look whos talking!
also…i think i ve had enuff of ur abuse…as i mentioned already…if u think u r right and have the balls come and debate or argue over religious issues…i certainly cannot win over you in abuses…so u post another abusive comment and u wud be blocked…go and vent out ur sickness somewhere else
u make me laugh ! u and I know very well how good of a qadiani u r ! I know people from qadiani religion and i do respect them bcoz they respect their faith! Maria , u r a rebound!
huh?? no seriously what???/
and btw…qadianis or ahmedis are all muslims..thats our FAITH (despite all ur constitutional bullshit)…wonder who have u been meeting and ‘respecting’ all this time.
and u know what…i ve had enuff…u dont have the guts to actually ‘ARGUE’ except for ur supposedly-smart-ass comments. off the blog from now on
Excuse, and what you think concerning forthcoming elections?
cool blog!
cool blog!
nice photos of this blog